Genealogy - KNIGHTs from Continental Europe to England/Ireland, to Philadelphia (PA), to France - Nov. 2017

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Ancestors of Margaret [3020]
Margaret [3020]
(-Bef 1186)

 

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Spouses/Children:
Walter I Fitzrichard DE CLIFFORD [3019]

Margaret [3020]

  • Born: , , England
  • Marriage: Walter I Fitzrichard DE CLIFFORD [3019]
  • Died: Bef 1186, , , England
  • Buried: Godstow Nunnery, Oxfordshire, England

bullet   Another name for Margaret was Maud.

bullet  General Notes:

Source <http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3.htm#_Toc336074848>:
"WALTER [I] FitzRichard, son of RICHARD FitzPons & his wife Matilda --- (-1190). m MARGARET, daughter of --- (-1185 or before, bur Godstow nunnery). "Walterus de Clifford" donated property to Dore abbey, Herefordshire, with the consent of "Margaretæ uxoris meæ", for the souls of "…filiorum et filiarum nostrarum et Osberti filii Hugonis", by undated charter, witnessed by "…Waltero de Clifford juvene et Rosamunda sorore sua…".

Eyton highlights that Margaret, wife of Walter [I] de Clifford, "is said, with probability, to have brought him Clifford Castle in frank-marriage, she being a daughter of Ralph de Toni, Domesday Lord of that castle". Under this hypothesis, she would have been Margaret de Tosny , daughter of Raoul [IV] de Tosny & his wife Adelisa of Huntingdon. Eyton implies, but does not actually state, that there is no primary source which confirms that this supposed parentage of Margaret is correct. He also says that "an equally probable account of the mode in which Clifford Castle left the sucession of the Toni is that Maud, wife of Richard fitz Ponce, was a daughter of Ralph de Toni". The chronology is not particularly favourable for Margaret to have been Raoul de Tosny´s daughter. Raoul´s children must have been born in the range [1104/15], given his marriage in 1103 and the narrow possible birth date range of his wife in [1073/76]. If Margaret was Raoul´s daughter, she would have been old when she died in or before 1185, and her husband even older when he died in 1190 assuming that he was about the same age as his wife. Let us compare this assessment with the approximate dates which can be assessed for the children of Walter [I] and his wife. Firstly, the couple´s grandson Walter [III] first appears in the records in 1208 (see below), presumably when he was a young adult, which would place his birth in [1180/90]. At that time, his father Walter [II] would likely have been over 40/50 years old if his maternal grandfather had been Raoul de Tosny. Secondly, Walter [I]´s great-granddaughter, granddaughter of his daughter Lucy, was probably born in [1190/96]: she was reported an infant on her first marriage in 1197, and her father died in [1196]. This would place Lucy´s birth in [1140/50], which would be on the late side if her maternal grandfather had been Raoul de Tosny (although not impossibly late). Thirdly, when these two cases are slotted together, it appears that Lucy was very likely older than her brother Walter [II]. If that is correct, the Tosny connection is even less likely, given her estimated birth date, if she was one of her parents´ older children. Another point to make is the absence of compatible onomastics for a Tosny marriage: none of Walter [I]´s children received typical Tosny names (Raoul/Ralph, Roger, Isabel, Adelisa, Godechilde). Walter [I]´s grandson was named Roger, but it is likely that he was named after his maternal grandfather (see below). A last point of confusion is the reported marriage of Isabelle, another daughter of Raoul [IV] de Tosny, with another Walter FitzRichard (who is probably identified with the son of Richard Lord of Clare and Tonbridge, see NORMANDY NOBILITY). If Margaret had also been Raoul´s daughter, this would lead to the improbable (although not impossible) coincidence that two of his daughters would have married two different individuals with the same name.

In conclusion, the alleged Tosny connection remains something of a mystery but the proposed Tosny parentage of Margaret, wife of Walter [I], does not appear to be the ideal explanation.
"Osbertus filius Hugonis" donated property to Godstow nunnery in Oxfordshire, at the request of "domini Walteri de Clifford" for the souls of "uxoris suæ Margaretæ et…Rosamundæ filiæ suæ", specifying that they were buried at Godstow, with the consent of "Hugonis fratris mei", by undated charter witnessed by "Waltero de Clifford, Ricardo filio suo et Lucia filia sua…".

Walter & his wife had six children:
1. AMICE
2. LUCY
3. WALTER [II] de Clifford (-before 23 Jan 1221). ...
4. RICHARD de Clifford (-before Aug 1213)
5. WILLIAM de Clifford (-after [1198])
6. ROSAMOND (-[1174/76], bur Godstow nunnery). "


Margaret married Walter I Fitzrichard DE CLIFFORD [3019] [MRIN: 1725], son of Richard FITZ PONS [3021] and Matilda DE GLOUCESTER [3022]. (Walter I Fitzrichard DE CLIFFORD [3019] was born in , , England and died in 1190 in , , England.)




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